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posted by [personal profile] zeegoeshere at 08:10pm on 05/09/2007 under , ,
Yeah, okay, I'm on hiatus but I just read this post and the comments and wow, I have SO many problems with the ideas expressed there. There's the conflation of racism against black people and homophobia, which seriously, I don't even know where to start with how wrong that is; there's the fact that the original poster and many of the people commenting are calling bandom gay when they clearly haven't done the research and are basing their opinions mostly on vague impressions; there's this comment implying that MCR might not know much about queer theory because they're from a lower class background (?!?!) the commenter has since apologized and retracted her statement; there's the assumption that any touching between these dudes is 'faking gay' instead of genuine affection expressed physically, which is okay for girls to do but not for guys, and imo if you're pro-gay rights you should be pro- anyone expressing their feelings and their sexuality in whatever way they feel; there's the assumption that bandslash's fanon and fic is *all* based on this onstage 'fake gay' as opposed to Pete saying that if he woke up and Patrick wasn't there, he'd disappear to wherever he was, to Frank saying that if there's a God, he thanks him every day for bringing them Bob, to Gerard and Bert spending the night together after making out in public and then writing a song about it. And, um, that was a really long run-on sentence, sorry.

And something else that I didn't quite realize until seeing Projekt Revolution this Sunday. This was a show where My Chem was not the main act, was just one of many other goth/metal bands playing that day. I'm used to teenie fangirls at bandom shows, but at the festival there were men wandering around with 'show us your tits' written on their chests, in t-shirts with offensive slogans, and plenty of drunken assholes behaving rudely to [livejournal.com profile] miss_saigon and I. It was a fairly sexist and homophobic environment--and that's the norm for the rock industry, not MCR and FOB's bubbles of tolerance. But Gerard put on a show where he asked the guys to take off their shirts for him--he made a real point of asking the girls to keep theirs' on--and all of the guys around me did. I think that these bands *are* making progress towards making their environments less sexist and homophobic. They're doing their part to change the music industry atmosphere.

None of these bands are selling records because they kiss each other onstage. Personally, I think it's awesome that these bands are reaching out to gay fans with the way they sometimes behave, and yet are also mainstream; I'm thrilled that bands can write songs about gay prison sex and gay not being a synonym for shitty and still be hugely commercially successful. And I'm pretty saddened by the number of fans I've seen talking shit about bandom either because of music elitism, or because of these mistaken ideas about bandom's homophobia. Geez, I know you're all jealous because bandom has the best canon going right now and is clearly having an awesome time while all your shows are on hiatus, but suck it up instead of mouthing off offensively and ignorantly.
Music:: Tegan & Sara- The Con
Mood:: 'bitchy' bitchy
There are 88 comments over 2 pages. (Reply.)
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posted by [identity profile] clumsygyrl.livejournal.com at 02:44am on 06/09/2007
zee... if i could, i'd have your babies. lots of them.

this is a big chunk of what i've had swirling in my head for the past many hours. thank you.

 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 02:46am on 06/09/2007
I'm just so. >:(!!
 
posted by [identity profile] 0nlymemories.livejournal.com at 02:49am on 06/09/2007
Amen. I totally totally wigged out at her, and I don't feel bad about it. When I read it, I totally went "!!!!!!!!" and then flailed in my head, and then flailed some more. It was bad and ugly.

But some of the other comments made me v. glad to be in fandom. We have asshats, but we also have some really lovely, awesome people. Like yourself. ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 02:54am on 06/09/2007
Yeah, I didn't bother commenting because so many people were expressing similar views to mine much more articulately than I could have. But it was pretty hurtful to see people from my friendslist agreeing with the OP, so I thought I'd offer up my (bitchy, wanky >_>) two cents in my journal.

And, aw. Thanks. ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] some-stars.livejournal.com at 02:53am on 06/09/2007
1. I love you so much, because I was all *nod nod srs post of thoughtful thoughts* and then your last line made me CACKLE.

2. I actually agree with her to the extent that...well, I want someone to actually *come out,* because they can and most of the not-as-famous people in their business can't. But that's a different....area, I guess, than what they do onstage, which is basically what scene guys *do* these days, it's not like it's an MCR thing or whatever.

So, yeah, I totally share her frustration in general, but I don't know if I can agree with the minstrel-show stuff, or if I do it's in a *much* wider context than just these bands/this musical genre.
 
posted by [identity profile] some-stars.livejournal.com at 02:59am on 06/09/2007
--and actually, completely tangentially to anyone's original point, I think I'm just getting really really impatient with the super-close male bonding and borderline-homosexuality/xxtreme homosociality and the whole thing, because...it just highlights for me the total absence of women onstage. there was like...three years in the nineties somewhere where you would have majority-women or even ALL WOMEN bands, drawing huge top-40-size crowds, and then it stopped, and...argh. I'm just sort of hitting a saturation point on gay men in general, I think. Which is not really anyone's fault in particular!
 
posted by [identity profile] joyfulseeker.livejournal.com at 02:55am on 06/09/2007
Geez, I know you're all jealous because bandom has the best canon going right now and is clearly having an awesome time while all your shows are on hiatus, but suck it up instead of mouthing off offensively and ignorantly.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHH

Man, I think I'm going to need popcorn.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:00am on 06/09/2007
I KNOW OMG THIS POST IS SO WANKY, but I just couldn't help myself. /o\
 
posted by [identity profile] bexone.livejournal.com at 02:57am on 06/09/2007
I am going to go VACUUM MY HOUSE instead of thinking about that post some more, I swear to god that's how close to frothing at the mouth I am. Unfortunately I didn't reach for that option until after I'd added my opinion to the fray.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:09am on 06/09/2007
Haha yeah, I will probably regret the wankiness of this post in the morning. Or in a few hours. But whatever, I'm just so pissed about it right now.
 
posted by [identity profile] lovelypoet.livejournal.com at 02:58am on 06/09/2007
Amen.

Just. Yes. I really wish I could say something more coherent that agreeing. But I've been SO FRUSTRATED by that post and some of the comments. I kept trying to express my thoughts in some way that doesn't make it sound like I've just bought into the PR machine of the bands (because I am actually a reasonably intelligent adult who talks about issues of representation in media and music as commodity and so on on a pretty regular basis) and the frustration got worse and I had to walk away without posting anything.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:10am on 06/09/2007
Lord, yeah, I loved the way people who actually knew what they were talking about WRT these bands got called speakers for PR machines. Classy, that.
 
posted by [identity profile] sweetvalleyslut.livejournal.com at 03:01am on 06/09/2007
Ugh, seriously, the bashing of Gerard's gender studies cred? That guy is a better feminist than 90% of the students at my liberal women's college. But really, this whole thing is just serving to remind me of why I love these people so much in the first place--I couldn't *design* a band that champions my ideals more perfectly than MCR does.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:05am on 06/09/2007
*rolls eyes* Yeah. I'm kind of cynical about academic-flavored gender studies anyway, and the idea that you can't be properly feminist or pro-gay rights without going to college class is just plain laughable.
 
posted by [identity profile] cyclogenesis.livejournal.com at 03:05am on 06/09/2007
Hahahahaaaa that last sentence has me loling, nicely done. I read that post but it just seems so pointless to argue with someone who admits they have no clue what they're talking about. Um? Okay. Other folks are being way more civil than I would be, that's for sure.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:12am on 06/09/2007
Yeah, I didn't comment because a) pointless, b) that civil thing is a problem, as evidenced by this post.
ext_3482: Saturn Girl (Default)
posted by [identity profile] unlovablehands.livejournal.com at 03:07am on 06/09/2007
1. the mcr dvd also has a bit of gerard just going on a feminist rage tirade at a crowd. it was pretty much amazing and what made me fall for the band.

2. putting aside who is or isn't gay, the acceptance bands like mcr preach and the actions on stage do mainstream gay/bi people. believe me. i have a 14 year old sister who is a big fangirl, and raised in a restrictive religious household, and this plus a couple of her friends being good influences has made her much less of a closeminded person than she could have been, you know?

3. i agree with lc in wishing there were some fucking girls in bandom, though. jesus.

4. patd needs to stfu, though. this is because you know who doesn't get it? ryan ross. jesus christ.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:16am on 06/09/2007
1. Dude, after Dan Didio that feminist tirade made me practically fall at Gerard's feet in gratitude.

2. Yeeeah, my other reaction to the post and comments was 'Do you realize the extent to which homophobia is normalized in most of this country?' Like, dude. ANY visible gay shenanigans in front of impressionable teenagers helps.

3. Sigh yes yes.

4. Yeah, oh Panic. Mostly I continue to hope that they grow out of any lingering asshole tendencies, because I mean, they ARE twenty-year-old dudes. Twenty-year-old dudes are generally dickheads, and I can't imagine that getting famous and rich so fast helped any.
 
posted by [identity profile] sockich.livejournal.com at 03:23am on 06/09/2007
I love you so much right now it's not even funny. ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] quettaser.livejournal.com at 03:31am on 06/09/2007
I've been watching that post for god, nine hours now? and I don't know if I'll ever be able to make a coherent reply/post. I just-- I'm offended on so many levels and from so many places that I can't even START.

I think instead I will ponder Lyn-Z and Alicia bonding over being married to a Way and the possible girlsex that might come out of that bonding.
 
posted by [identity profile] mkcs.livejournal.com at 03:35am on 06/09/2007
Thanks for the link.

It's a fine thing that no one ever told me, back when I thought I was straight, that it was terribly wrong for me to make out with girls because it oppressed lesbians. I might have taken years longer to figure out I was bi and missed out on one of the two most important relationships of my life.
 
posted by [identity profile] canadiankracka.livejournal.com at 03:36am on 06/09/2007
I just got done reading The Post and skimming its comments and was very "rage rage rage!!!" and then I read your post and got to the last line and now all I can think is "\o/ WIN!"
 
posted by [identity profile] the-liftedlorax.livejournal.com at 03:37am on 06/09/2007
I'm just going to say the same thing here that I said over there - and you'd see, if you read a little further, that I didn't mean it that way.

I'm sorry for making a stupid statement. I didn't mean it the way it came out, and obviously it came out in a negative way.

I chose not to delete the comment as a reminder to myself to think about what I mean before I say it out loud. If I'd known I was going to get called out in an entirely different journal for it, I may have rethought that idea.

Again, I'm sorry.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 03:41am on 06/09/2007
I didn't see your apology, but I accept it and thank you for making it. I'm glad that you see that it came out negatively. And I'm sorry for calling your comment out in my journal, but the sentiment you accidentally expressed hit some hot buttons of mine.
 
posted by [identity profile] beingothrwrldly.livejournal.com at 03:48am on 06/09/2007
Oh man, your last line makes me LOL SO HARD.

I didn't want to comment, because I knew any attempt to give canon info on these bands is a waste of time - if someone doesn't care, they don't care, not a big deal. But the thing that kept picking at my brain was her attitude that it's okay for them to "play gay" if they are gay, but otherwise, it's offensive? Part of me feels like maybe she just worded it incorrectly, but a bigger part of me feels like that's not the case at all, and...yeah. I'm in a really weird headspace about it right now, but I do know that the intent behind her words really hits in the wrong spot.

This post, though, yes. Word word word, yes.
 
posted by [identity profile] jadziadrgnrdr.livejournal.com at 04:10am on 06/09/2007
&hearts &hearts &hearts

I knew you would be there kicking ass. I get my hackles up whenever someone goes to the "What if we did this to Blacks? People would be outraged!" place because shut up, dude, just shut it. That entire post and a lot of the comments got me so pissed. I hate homo-superiority as much as hetero since I'm bi and they both either act like we don't exist, exist only as a way station to one of the other extremes, or are confused. Like you mentioned and [livejournal.com profile] kalpurna wrote about in her journal, these boys are not working on stereotypes, they are pushing the limits of m/m intimacy and affection and I love every second of it. I think it's progress.

 
posted by [identity profile] impertinence.livejournal.com at 04:10am on 06/09/2007
So I'm kind of serially friending anyone I think is awesome right now, hope that's okay. I very much agree with you, and I also love seeing discussion of girls in bandom in the comments.

This was a show where My Chem was not the main act, was just one of many other goth/metal bands playing that day. I'm used to teenie fangirls at bandom shows, but at the festival there were men wandering around with 'show us your tits' written on their chests, in t-shirts with offensive slogans, and plenty of drunken assholes behaving rudely to miss_saigon and I.

I didn't know this. Suddenly the explosion of stage gay on this tour makes (incredibly fucking awesome) sense.
ext_7824: Greta Salpeter (beffies)
posted by [identity profile] kalpurna.livejournal.com at 04:16am on 06/09/2007
Fucking word, seriously. I could not possibly agree more. As always, I love your brain. ♥

Geez, I know you're all jealous because bandom has the best canon going right now and is clearly having an awesome time while all your shows are on hiatus, but suck it up instead of mouthing off offensively and ignorantly.

IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE IT'S TRUE
 
posted by [identity profile] norah.livejournal.com at 04:18am on 06/09/2007
I thought it was badly put, but it definitely resonated with some of the discomfort I've had with the escalation of Frank and Gerard's onstage game. I love MCR's earnest anti-homophobia and anti-sexism stance, but something about the increasingly performative nature of it has started to rub me the wrong way. YMMV, of course, and I read the OP as referring only to the MCR stage shenanigans, not bandom-in-general (perhaps because I couldn't really see it applying to bandom-in-general; I hear vague things about P!atD having a queer theme to their stage show, but I don't follow their canon). I'm not sure why I feel the discomfort, because I read your post and I say, "yeah, that makes sense" but I read that post and I thought, oh my god, I was just talking about this the other day," as well, so there's definitely something I can't quite put my finger on there that's makign me ambivalent about it - ambivalent about this specifically, but also about the general men-in-emo thing (have you read Jessica Hopper's "Where the Girls Aren't"?) and about the way we pay attention to ...

you know, this is like the tenth time I've tried to articulate this, I've been talking about it for weeks, and I'm still not managing to pin it down with words. Sorry for the rambling.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 04:47am on 06/09/2007
No need to apologize! I feel like this post might have made me seem as if I don't think any of the bandom bands' gender politics are problematic, and that is definitely not the case. I haven't been able to collect my thoughts into a post about it, but I've been churning over thoughts about bandom and sexism for months now, and I'm slightly ambivalent about Frank and Gerard's gaymolution as well. I firmly believe that even if you're incredibly invested in a band/show/comic book/movie/whatever, you should still be open to criticism of your fannish obsession, and there are plenty of canons that I love while recognizing sexism and homophobia and racism in the source.

However, when it comes down to it, bandom is not one of those canons for me when it comes to homophobia. I think they're doing more harm than good. I'll split hairs over whether or not acting gay in public if you're not gay is exploitative when gayness becomes something trendy, when far more harmful forms of homophobia aren't flourishing. It was really kind of hurtful to see close friends bitching about what has been pretty much the only fannish subject of my LJ this whole year and wonder if they think that I support what they see as homophobic and fake. :/
 
posted by [identity profile] nova-bright.livejournal.com at 04:54am on 06/09/2007
You have eloquence and intelligent points where I just have angry urges to keyboard mash.
I...just...arrrgh!


 
posted by [identity profile] divided-poet.livejournal.com at 05:16am on 06/09/2007
I don't comment on anything a lot, but I saw this post and I just had to tell you that I could hug you.

What bands like MCR are doing right now...it's amazing. I live just outside The Woodlands, Texas which can be a very close minded place. But, when I went to Projekt Rev. (which was held in the Woodlands), and Gerard did the whole "boys take your shirts off" and all the regular antics with the rest of the band, it was great to see such a positive response from everyone.

Usually the really bad stupid things stick in my mind, but I don't remember one person at that concert saying anything bad or putting down anything this/these band/s were doing. That's not to say that nobody did, but it is saying that if someone said something degrading the general consensus was not to agree with them. Even the father sitting behind me and my friends, that had obviously brought his - probably - 15 year old son to the concert, didn't have any comments to make when Gerard held Frank's head against his chest and then pushed him to his knees.

That long un-edited (probably un-needed) couple of paragraphs up there was just to say your post made my night. *g*
 
posted by [identity profile] irradiatedsoup.livejournal.com at 06:56am on 06/09/2007
Yeah, pretty much.
 
posted by [identity profile] jamjar.livejournal.com at 08:48am on 06/09/2007
I especially dislike the idea that our brand of shenanigans is somehow less valid than others because... what? Because they're real people? Because they may -gasp!- not be interested in going further than making out with the guy they like to rub against sometimes? Because they've made a fanbase that looks at these things and thinks, huh, that's actually kind of hot instead of bottling them? because they've made that *acceptable*, with people who, a lot of them before, would use gay as a synonym for shitty, or might grow up to be the the kind of people that think being hardcore makes it okay to be homophobic.

Because they will do that even when they are in that hostile environment, when it's actually putting them at risk, bodyguards or no, by people who don't care if they sleep with girls.

Seriously, no.
 
posted by [identity profile] bruisesonguitar.livejournal.com at 10:11am on 06/09/2007
Hi, I don't know you but I love you a lot for posting this. ♥

I agree with everything you just said. I could ramble more about my opinion on this but I won't bore you with that, instead I'll just say: YOU ROCK!
gloss: woman in front of birch tree looking to the right (Default)
posted by [personal profile] gloss at 12:40pm on 06/09/2007
suck it up instead of mouthing off offensively and ignorantly.
I'm sorry you feel this way. A lot of bandom squee hurts, offends, and sickens me. Is that ignorant? (For the record, I'm delighted with my current canon and all...three readers of it.)

When someone says they're offended, I believe it's worthwhile to try to listen to why. I'm trying to listen to you here, but your anger's preventing me from understanding; I'm hearing a lot of defensive dismissal and very little willingness to engage. That makes me even sadder.
 
posted by [identity profile] ficbyzee.livejournal.com at 02:47pm on 06/09/2007
I did think that the OP and most of the people commenting on her side were doing so in ignorance. She admitted that she barely knew anything about these bands beyond Pete Wentz, yet she was making these sweeping assumptions and judgments about them anyway. It was like someone coming in to comics fandom and bitching about how Batman is a huge asshole and Dick is a good-for-nothing emo whiner when they've only read a few issues--except that this is an accusation of homophobia against real people, *many* of them, to a fandom that already has to deal with tons of people scoffing both from fandom and from RL. (And for the record, the last line of my post had nothing to do with comics fandom--comics never go on hiatus.)

Look, you know that when there's shit stirred in fandom because someone is criticizing a canon for being sexist/racist/homophobic/what-have-you, I usually fall on the side of those doing the criticizing. It's actually really strange for me to be on the other side, especially as someone who cares very deeply about gay rights and fighting homophobia. I did read Phaballa's post and the comments trying to listen to why; this is actually an issue in bandom that I've thought about and discussed before the wank. But the blackface comparison made me see red, and then comments about how MCR must not understand what they're doing because they haven't gone to college pissed me off even more, so I made a pretty angry, wanky post.

It doesn't help that, even though my post is probably the angriest, wankiest post I've seen from a bandom person, I've seen multiple posts loudly hating on the entire fandom for being wanky and 'dogpiling' the post, even though this post (http://witchqueen.livejournal.com/414867.html) explains why that's pretty erroneous. I'm really sick of my fandom getting treated as if it's somehow ten times more stupid, more vacuous, more ridiculous than any other fandom, and I'm sick of people acting like we're ridiculous for getting offended at Phaballa's post when she made such a huge accusation with so little knowledge of what she was talking about.

I absolutely admit that this post is pretty hostile and angry and not the most conducive to healthy discussion. There are better posts here (http://kalpurna.livejournal.com/76027.html), here (http://gigantic.livejournal.com/429846.html), and here (http://monkeycrackmary.livejournal.com/792143.html) that explain how I feel about this in a much nicer way.
There are 88 comments over 2 pages. (Reply.)
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