(no subject) [zeegoeshere]

Lately, I've tried to distance myself from race meta in fandom, just because taking it so personally and getting enraged every time people were stupid was bad for my blood pressure. I found that the race relations I found looking outside of fandom were so depressing that I needed to be almost willfully blind to anything offensive in fandom to keep my fandom time fun. I made myself take a step back. But right now I'm pretty much shaking with rage, and it's not because I think race issues in fandom are so much more important now or something, it's because of the hypocrisy I'm seeing.

I find it interesting that in fandom, where people feel entitled to be outraged at lack of warnings in fic, lack of spoiler cuts, pairing labels or ratings, entrance into a locked community, etc, etc, the second anyone (especially if 'anyone' is non-white) points out something that's sketchy in terms of race, oh, they're using the wrong tone.

The message I keep getting, over and over, from fandom is that it's entitled to not be spoiled for anything, it's entitled to be warned if a character stubs its toe in fic, it's entitled to have BNFs bend over backwards in order to be nice and not cliquey, but I and like-minded fen like me aren't entitled to try and carve out a non-racist safe space for ourself, because we're not asking politely enough.

You know what?

witchqueen's original email was ten times more polite than I would've been under the circumstances. (Seriously: Interracial relationships equated with bestiality.) And the post she made, after such an insulting brush-off from the mods, was again, much more composed and dignified than I would have been inclined to be. But no--apparently since she didn't say what she had to say while groveling, people are whining because of her tone.

It's become pretty clear to me that there *is* no proper tone that can be used while talking about race. No amount of politeness or coyness will actually make people listen, so fuck it. I've been trying to compose a post in my head on why people don't write Travis fic in bandom, for instance, but why am I even bothering? It seems to me that fandom will hear the same thing whether I accuse anyone who hasn't written Travis fic of being a bigot or whether I politely ask why people might feel uncomfortable writing Travis/Bill.

I just feel so tired of watching the same debates over 'tone,' the same hypocrisy and complaining that we're harshing white clueless fans' squee, the way it's okay to scream up and down about being accidentally spoiled but it's *not* okay to point out accidental racism. Fandom just doesn't seem to be learning.

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I hear you. I so *very* much hear you.

R
so dismayed I feel sick.

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I followed links to this earlier and while I don't really know what to say other that you know... I want to smack some people around, I just wanted to comment. I seriously felt like crying. It's just... *sigh* I don't know.. *offers hug* I'm sorry this wasn't a better comment.

this whole thing makes me ill -

witchqueen managed to address the mods eloquently and far more politely than they deserve - and their response is just baffling and insulting as hell. *is sickened*

wrt Travis - he's just a cutie; even though I'm not really into bandom, I find him adorable and it's hard to believe more people don't/won't write him

*hugs*

For the record, I thought her tone was not inappropriate.

I was getting pissed off about this too. This tone thing sounds way too much like "uppity colored people speaking out of turn." It's really scary.

Oh, god, for serious. I am the whitest white girl that ever did white and I just can not imagine if someone told me I had offended them as evenly as

witchqueen that I would not immediately bend over backwards to take it back and *fix* it. The impulse to say "no, NOT ME! Shut UP! Censorship!" would never occur to me as my big soapbox to jump on.

I tried reading the comments of members of the community and it was just so enraging.

Exactly. I would just be so horrified with myself. Hell, I'd probably have a panic attack of shame.

I'm pretty constantly having to correct my parents because they use outdated/racist terminology and sometimes it works and sometimes I spend an hour trying to convince them that it's offensive to call all Latin Americans "Mexican" to no avail. I think back on all the times I must have parroted their words when I was younger and entirely ignorant and am horrified.

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SAME! *wanders in from elsewhere* My parents used to be the King and Queen of White Privilege, and I look back at the lessons I must have absorbed and cringe. If I was one of those mods -- well hell, I'm so scared of causing offence that I wouldn't have used the tag in the first place, but if I did and someone called me on it, I'd have to hand in my modem out of shame.

Can I tell you how so fucking sick I am of, "well, yes, racism/sexism/homophobia sucks, but do you have to be so angry about it?" Forget that "angry" seems to mean "saying anything at all." How about the idea that being treated like shit is worth getting angry over?

I find it interesting that in fandom, where people feel entitled to be outraged at lack of warnings in fic, lack of spoiler cuts, pairing labels or ratings, entrance into a locked community, etc, etc, .

well that's life and death shit you are talking about.

race?

now come on, that's inconsequential...

Wait- people are saying

witchqueen wasn't *polite* enough? Sweet Mary Mother of Jesus, what do they *want*?

At least the vast majority of the response that I've seen has been outraged- and a lot of people having the opposite reaction than the DD mods, ie "I hadn't heard the word/didn't know it had racist connotations- now I know not to use it." But the response from the people who *don't* get it is so *willfully* ignorant that it's mindboggling.

I loathe the implication in the 'you're being hostile and argumentative and aggressive!' argument, and all the variations thereof, that all discussions about privilege must begin by acknowledging the white/straight/male's privilege -- you have to be nice to them, or they'll NEVER give you some of their delicious delicious candy, so ner.

Using this icon not only because it features two multiracial rockstars but because I like to think that Beckett is going to bite some stupid, stupid idiot's face off in a minute. And then have sex with Travis. Lots of sex with Travis.

AMEN

Speaking of race and bandom, every now and again I wonder how big the fob part of it would have gotten if Pete was a little darker or if he let his hair do what it wanted. I remember reading some comments in some journal where they were lamenting how bandom wasn't around for the slashiness of Bruce Springsteen/Clarence Clemons I was like "Psh, that particular pairing would get maybe one community were no one hardly ever posts and only two or three good writers would write it. And that's only if they're at their hotness peak and they hump each other on stage at every show for a whole entire tour." Because the prospects for pairings with color in them are still just that predictable.

the second anyone (especially if 'anyone' is non-white) points out something that's sketchy in terms of race, oh, they're using the wrong tone.

What you said, word, etc.

I mean, Jesus - I'm white and right now the levels of stupidity and privilege on display have my brain stuck oscillating between "OMGWTFGOATS" and "Let's hit them all with big sticks".

witchqueen e-mailed them privately to let them know that the word was offensive, explained the connotations, asked them to please change it, and suggested a less offensive alternative term. She handed them a ready-made opportunity to say, "Sorry, we didn't realize, we'll fix it".

And she's the bad guy because she didn't use the right tone?

It seems to boil down to the fact that she said in her original e-mail that the use of the word "infuriates" her.

Because, you know, if a person of colour ever dares to feel angry or upset, that makes them Very Very Scary, and hearing about it might hurt the feelings of the poor delicate white people.

... no, it's no use. My brain is back to BIG STICKS again.

Yes, that. I've been trying to come up with a concise and, you know, not too scary to white people way of saying this for a BARW (blog against racism week? Is that abbreviated correctly?) post, but I keep on sitting down and getting all GRAGH and wanting to just wade in smacking people with a comically large semi-decayed fish. Which, you know. Tone!

But there's a mysterious law of the universe that dictates that white people who post about racism are never criticized for their tone.

White people can smack people with fish and they'll still get told how calm and sensible and rational they are being - unlike those angry hostile scary people of colour.

flambeau found a jaw-dropping example of this - from one of the DD mods, no less:

http://flambeau.livejournal.com/160337.html

witchqueen sends them a private e-mail to explain why the word is offensive and ask them to "please change it". She's told that she's "wank-seeking" and people freak about the fact that she said that the word "infuriated" her.

But when

flamewarrior posts publicly and says that the mods' actions are "at best clueless, and at worst directly supportive of racist attitudes" -

One of the mods responds to tell her:

"No offence was intended, but honestly, if sensible people (like you) had alerted us to the fact that there was someone out there who felt really, honestly hurt, then it would have been a quite different matter..."

'Cause when a white person says it, it's different.

Excuse me, I think I may have to go and scream loudly for a while.

Holy fucking shit. Oh my god, a white person was offended? You mean it's really offensive, then? Well, why didn't you say so? Jesus fucking stabitty Christ.

OH MY GOD I'M BACK TO RAGE. AA;LDKSFJ;ja;ldkjf;lasjkdf. !

... Wait, what? *What*? *Sensible people like (white) you*?

Yep, back to wanting to stomp on people's faces. But that's okay! I'm white! That'll be a calm, sensible, rational response!

*stomp stomp stomp*

O______________O WTF WTF WTF.

...WTF. I want to sic

lcsbanana's fish on the *entire world*. WHITE PEOPLE. STOP SUCKING.

....oh for the love of god. OH NOES, YOU GUYS, WHITE PEOPLE NOTICED, D: D: D:

(The whole point of the fish, btw, was that around March, when 2007 started gearing up to be The Year of Fandom Confronting Its Racism (AND FREAKING RIGHT OUT ABOUT IT), my basic stance was "oh my god, I hate everyone, next time I end up in one of these discussions I am just going to POST TROUT MACROS, it would be about as useful." So the idea that even THAT doesn't outweigh my white privilege in getting to be considered Reasonable just....well, it's one of those teeth-grinding moments, you know?)

But obviously the fish is humorous and charming!

Whereas Zvi's wonderful "Clueless white people are educable. Insensitive honkies get killfiled" icon is PROOF that she is an evil racist bitch who is hypocritical because she is persecuting the poor white people.

As we learn from many of the comments to the mods' apology, and I really, really shouldn't have started looking at the comments before I'd had enough coffee.

HELLO PRIMAL SCREAMING TIME.

I wholly approve of

brown_betty's response here (she's so sensible!).

those comments are just LITTLE JEWELS, aren't they?

*admires betty also*

Man, oh man, what's old is new again, isn't it? Fannish privilege has always bugged the hell out of me most especially as it concerns race. I completely agree with all the points you've made in your post. It's just the...the inversion of importance that constantly smacks me upside my head that as a writer I stress out over how much to warn for in my story, because I can fully expect the howls of outrage if the BSO gets an unexpected hangnail, but that such blatantly morally outrageous behavior such as racially charged language can be hand-waved away as a mistake in the reader's perceptions.

In a text dependent world such as the internet the power of words to hurt should be instantly acknowledged, and ignorance of offense is no excuse.

So much love! Thank you.

"the same hypocrisy and complaining that we're harshing white clueless fans' squee, the way it's okay to scream up and down about being accidentally spoiled but it's *not* okay to point out accidental racism."

the level to which they just dissmissed her comment was scary.

the main point i agree with is this:

"You have posted the term miscegenation completely without context or any indication to your membership that the term is racist and using it outside of the community might lead people to believe that they are racist for using it."

if they had wanted to make a challange about miscegenation, that would be fine. give some proper backgroud on the word. let people run with it. instead they chose a word that they thought was synonymous with interracial.

For what it's worth, I don't write Travis because he's tall. For the same reasons, I don't write Gabe (who is also not-white, and also hot like burning), Beckett (again, hot like burning) or Ray (as Fi says, one tasty bucket of chicken) or Bob. I just have a mental block about people who are taller than me. Although if I were going to write any of those people, it would be Bill and Travie, because their love is so, so painfully obvious.

I have my own rant about fannish privilege and gender, but that is probably best left for another day. But from one of the quiet minorities (Indians! The we-got-here-first kind, not the subcontinental kind.) over here, WORD. If you want anyone kneecapped, just ring me up.

How tall are you, if you don't mind me asking? I'm just wondering how many fandoms this becomes problematic for you in ;)

I'm 5'9". When it comes to Mikeyway and Ryan I sort of stuff my fingers in my ears and reassure myself that I could wear tall shoes.

I can't even help you with Spencer, though. I think his is just an all-encompassing hotness that I am powerless to avoid.

But it actually becomes a problem in a fair number of places. I could only ever read Buffy fic, not write it, because I kept wanting to make Dave smaller than he was, so Angel would be so goddamn HUGE all the time. *mutters*

It's really anyone's best guess why I DON'T like FOB fic, since they are apparently the perfect size for me to be writing about, but, no.

The theoretical hardcore band that Brendon Urie fronts in my head is all over short, though. Frank and Sonny Moore and Max Green from Escape the Fate and Andy. Brendon thinks it's the best optical illusion EVER, making him look that tall.

There are probably words to express how deeply in my soul I need that band to exist, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

And I'm 5'3", so I've had many a conversation about how wee and adorable Frank Iero is, only to have to admit that he is, in fact, taller than me ;)

They're called Ragamuffin. Gerard gives Frank constant shit about the fact that he's in a band named after a homicidal rag doll from a Roman Dirge comic, then he meets Brendon and suddenly it all makes so much more sense. Their music is kind of like Chiodos' and Brendon says at one point, 'If you expect to get me into an animal costume you're out of your goddamn mind'. I totally have like this huge thing in my head that I'm eventually going to get all written out. It's actually pretty mortifying.

But seriously, how hot would Brendon be, trying to be all tall and menacing and gothic? I mean, SERIOUSLY. Also, Sonny and Max would try to teach him to scream, like all good frontmen of screamo bands should, and he would mostly just sound like a dying cat. So Max takes pity on him and does it for him.

Andy is the only person in the band who does girls, and is blissfully zen about the fact that his lead singer and rhythm guitarist are fucking because seriously, he gets more action than any three porn stars, picking up the girls who are crushed by everyone else in the band's stunning lack of interest. It's awesome.

And I wouldn't count on Frank being that much taller than you are, unless you've done like a toe to toe comparison. I've seen a picture or two of him next to Patrick, who I actually believe when he says he's 5'4", and they're definitely not the same height.

Oh, ickly Frank. How I love you so. <3

Clearly the answer is to write about more Japanese musicians!

I remember when I first got into jpop and I was mainlining all the teenie magazines that had height and weight stats and using my calculator to convert to pounds and feet and just...floored. Everyone was like 5'2" and a hundred pounds. XD

Mmm, Japanese musicians. That sounds much like when I was 13 and looking up the stats for the Gundam Wing pilots, and was very :o about the fact that Duo was in fact shorter than I was.

Oh, Japan. Never change.

Linksurfed in. Thank you for writing this. I too have been seeing way too many complaints about tone.

For the win. Best post I've seen on the current outrage so far.

And that's the best icon of the current outrage so far.

I've gotta give credit to

jonquil, whose comment on the subject I shamelessly stole for this icon. Her comment in full is even better: "If you can't see white privilege, it's because you're soaking in it."

You know, the sad part is, this isn't limited to fandom, but anything regarding race. If you're too calm and polite about it, "It's not a big deal" and if you get angry, "You're irrational". (also see: every other kind of oppression as well)

The reason fandom hits my last nerve is because it is such an easy things to change. It's not like asking for reparations, giving Indians back their land, fixing the justice system, educational system or police shooting black folks in the back. It's not asking people to look at their history, honestly and brutally. It's not asking people to change corporate boardrooms or save the environment. It's not asking anyone to do anything more than simply type sorry and change a few words.

At most, 10 minutes of typing, something these folks are doing all the time anyway.

And that's asking too much. It's asking too much to NOT insult my heritage, to call my family beasts, and my very birth an act of unnatural coupling.

"Oh, but it's just fiction!"

Yet Asian American relations in the US alone have been shaped by fiction over 100 years old. Or did you think geishas and dog eating was our everyday life? And if you did, what does that say about fiction and that it's "just" fiction?

Yes, I do have a problem comparing my parents to beastiality, since my people have been compared to rat-people historically, which sparked off the running out of Chinese that resulted in 200 reported lynchings in the state of California alone.

And I'm overreacting?

Tell me how many white people have been killed because they DIDN'T get a chance to type something eugenical and racist.

Really.

"And that's asking too much. It's asking too much to NOT insult my heritage, to call my family beasts, and my very birth an act of unnatural coupling."

Thank you so much for saying this.

I have been...gawd I don't even have words for how angry and upset reading the mods reply has made me. I don't always agree with Witchqueen but her emails were whole worlds more polite than I would have been. I am amazed at her calmness and restraint in the emails she sent the mods.

I understand freedom of speech enables them to use whatever words they choose, but I don't think we are overreacting, nor do I think we should all have to be 'reasonable' in our protest just to be heard. Especially in this case, where it wasn't a subtle theme or action but an in-our-face insult.

I am so mixed race I CAN'T have a relationship that is not interracial and it really pisses me off that not only did it give them excuse to sneak 'nigger' into the theme but also let them equate my life and existence (as you said above) with bestiality.

*stops posting before she cries...being pregnant with an 'unnatural' baby and all*

[Surfed on in.]

Thank you so much for posting this. The number of people I've seen complaining about and/or criticizing the tone of

witchqueen's email has been alarming.

I deal with race and culture Every. Single. Day. in my life in academia/ social service and whatnot but I will admit to being way avoidy of the subject in fandom because I come here to unwind and well ya know... I used to be pretty heavy in the Star Trek fandom. I used to do play by email role playing and ALL my characters were black (usually some mix of Bajoran or Klingon, my fave species) and bisexual. I used to make everyone confront race and sexuality daily and it went pretty well. Folks were accepting if a bit taken aback at first. I have not had any real issues in bandom as of yet in this regard but there is something that troubles me a bit that I hardly ever have spoken about.

Travis.

I love him like burning in fic, when he's done right and there are some good 'uns out there but then there are those who think that every Black man is an aggressive, insensitive, asshole. Travis is not from the 'streets'. He's from some little town in upstate New York and although he does use some slang, he is just as apt to throw out skate board slang as he is hip hop slang. A lot of folks used to write him as an asshole jerkwad and William like a card carrying pussy toting girl. Neither is a correct characterization judging by the buzznet/foe/youtube clips. Now it's not that he's written all that bad. He's just ... kinda not written. That makes me sad. Write more Travis y'hear?