(no subject) : comments [zeegoeshere]

Wow, hi, way to put words in my mouth. You're right, I hadn't noticed the problem, but I didn't say that it didn't exist. I just wasn't looking for it, as issues of race don't play in to my daily life. Maybe it's an American thing. That doesn't make me completely ignorant or intentionally insensitive. I just have a different perspective on the situation.

I agree that the number of stories written about Travie or Gabe or Disashi (or fuck, I don't know, Matt Mixon or KTC or whoever else you want to include in this) is comparatively low. But hey, they're also in the minority in general. There are obviously going to be more stories about white guys in bandom because there are more of them. You don't have to be looking for it to notice that. But not going out of my way to read fic about bandom PoC doesn't make me (or anyone else or the fandom at large who doesn't go looking for fic about them) racist, however. You weren't accusing me of that, but it kinda felt that way all the same. :/

The point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of people in this bandom that aren't getting fic written about them, and that it's not necessarily always about race. I think it's fair to say that I just find I gravitate more to fic about FOB and yeah, The Cab, because they're my favourite bands in this whole crazy mixed up world. It's NOT because they're white and I'm white, but I can see where those conclusions could be jumped to, if you were thinking only in those terms. However, if GCH were my ~favourite~, I would just as easily be more interested in looking for their fic. And at the end of the day, I still have a folder of like 50+ 'treckett'/'gabilliam'/'soap supergroup' pictures saved because, yeah, they're all sexy dudes who like to grope each other on stage, and that's what we're all here for. And when the whole supergroup OT3 thing was big, I read plenty of that fic because there was plenty being written (which was all pre-

dotcoms_refresh or del.icio.us...) It was really in our face. And now, not so much. I expect if Panic and the Cab weren't busy being so awesome and exciting right now, there might be more focus on the possibility of Travie/Pete, except even Pete is busy trying to become a legitimately hetero dude by getting engaged and all. The canon of everything is working against us. What the world needs now is more sweet AUs, apparently. Not that it'll fix things, necessarily, but it might help?

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"Personally, I just don't know enough about any them as people (or as characters) to write about them or even necessarily to read about them, and that's not an issue of race. I don't think it's fair to assume that people aren't writing smut about Disashi because he's black."

But, see, you can of did say that it didn't exist.

The difference is that the most popular bands -- FOB, MCR, Panic -- all get written about extensively. The problem is that GCH is more popular than Panic, but they're not written about. Travis, who has PLENTY of slashy canon with several people and most recently, Pete -- Pete might be engaged, but most of MCR is married and they get slashed constantly and Pete still gets slashed, just usually with white guys -- and still Travis doesn't get written with any kind of frequency.

Also, in every single fandom I've ever been in -- seven over the last five and a half years -- even when people of color are the main characters, they're not written with even half the frequency of white characters. It isn't a coincidence, it's far too prevalent for that, and the argument that it isn't related to race is used in every. single. fandom. because people don't want to deal with the fact that there is racism in fandom, and that racism isn't limited to guys who like to walk around in their mama's sheets.

Edited Date: 2008-04-27 03:24 pm (UTC)

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GCH is more popular than Panic, but they're not written about.

I completely disagree with this. Maybe GCH are more popular ~outside~ of bandom (in the States, anyway), but since that's not where the slash is being written, it's irrelevant. Panic are definitely more popular with the internet and bandom at large, hence being written about way waaaaaaay more.

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Panic are definitely more popular with the internet and bandom at large, hence being written about way waaaaaaay more.

But that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? They're popular why? With (this particular branch of) bandom, why? Why more popular with writers in this section of fandom, when, apparently (I don't know as my bandoms are mostly classic rock), GCH has more mainstream popularity than Panic?

I've seen what

vylit is talking about plenty of times in all different fic-generating areas of fandom: some blatantly obvious/subtext-filled relationships in movies/tv/bands/etc that aren't written about, often when there's a much less obvious (but all-white) pairing in the same canon that is (Hi, "Angel" fandom. Why oh why was Gunn/Wesley not more popular?) Movies that were fabulously slashy yet one of the members of the pairing was black, asian, or hispanic, and...just nothing. One or two dedicated writers and lots of folks who may say, "Wow that was slashy!" but nada as far as developing the fandom following you'd think the source material deserves.

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i agree with this comment so hard i actually just squeaked at my computer.

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The point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of people in this bandom that aren't getting fic written about them, and that it's not necessarily always about race. How is that a useful point to make? In what way does that not negate zee's point that there is a problem with race?

Maybe you thought you were saying something original and inciteful, but I have had discussions about race and fandom before, and there is always somebody jumping in to say, "I just like these white guys, better," or, "It's not about race, it's just that there aren't as many CoCs," or whatever they can think of to say, which basically amounts to the problem is not as bad as the OP presents it, just leave me alone to write about my favorite white guys.

In today's discussion, you were that person. Congratulations.

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Maybe the reason that people keep saying this is that, for some of us, it's the truth. I'm not sure how else to say that. Sorry.

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Maybe the reason that people keep saying this is that, for some of us, it's the truth. I'm not sure how else to say that. Sorry.

http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/213836.html

What I am trying to get across is that if, for you, that is the truth, if you honestly and truly don't believe that you, in particular, are not having a problem writing people because of their race/ethnicity, if in a past fannish life you wrote about HBP-compliant Blaise Zabini, or Sulu, or Jake Sisko, or whatever, if you for serious and for real have reason to think you are not part of the problem … protesting your innocence makes you part of the problem and makes you look like the bad guy, because the cumulative effect of all of those people saying, "But I just like these white guys better, it has nothing to do with race," is to say, "Fandom uses CoC for fanactivity less than white guys because white guys are sexier/more deeply written/more numerous/more gay/better."

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IAWTC. I was surprised to find it so soon in the comment thread, but not surprised to find it.

omg. i love that a race in bandom convo is starting to kick off. because yeah, i like to know where the people around me stand. and sometimes this fandom can be a little ambiguous. *we all think Travie is hot and his hair is just crazy fun; but you know lets not talk about his BLACKNESS.*

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This year I've been through the wars on this issue: SGA, HP, High School Musical ... have you heard of

deadbrowalking. It's fictional person focused, but you might like it anyway.

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lol. thanks. totally been rocking with deadbro for a little over a year now. i kind of lurk except when particularly motivated. but thanks for the suggestion.

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So a lot of people are saying the things I'd be saying to you about GCH and CoC in fandom so I won't bother but there is something in your comment that i think needs to be remarked on:

I just wasn't looking for it, as issues of race don't play in to my daily life. Maybe it's an American thing.

If you think issues of race don't play into your daily life you are simply not paying attention. Race and racism are everywhere even though white folks are often blind to those issues. It doesn't mean the issues aren't impacting you every day it just means you aren't aware of them because you have the privilege of not being aware of them. I'm making an assumption you are white here (because the vast majority of people I've encountered who say that race doesn't play into their lives are white), and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong btw.

Racism isn't just an American issue. Being Canadian doesn't give you a get out of racism free card. A ten second google search gave me access to a ton of information about racism in Canada (http://www.hopesite.ca/remember/history/racism_canada_1.html).

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Look, fine, to you I'm an ignorant white Canadian. I'm fully aware there is racism in my country, and I don't think that being white makes me totally blind to it.

Sure, I'm all Scandinavian blood on my mother's side and some bizarre mixture of Scottish/Irish/French Huguenots on my dad's so I'm not even a little bit anything else, I can't cling to some "one-sixteenth whatever". And it'll just sound assinine if I start talking about how my group of friends is so diverse, because what this whole discussion is supposed to come down to is what boys we like to slash and how having never written any smut about Travis or Gabe apparently makes me a bad person.

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Seriously? No one called you ignorant or racist. You're behaving like this is ABOUT YOU, and it really, really isn't. It's fandom-wide. It's all over. No one has said that you're ignorant or racist, and in fact, people have gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to make sure that your feelings weren't hurt in this discussion. No one called you a bad person, so I have to say that when a person of color or group of people say, "hey, fandom, this isn't on. has anyone noticed how we're treating people of color?" and you come and say they have it wrong, that they're making something about race when according to you -- the person that doesn't even read GCH fic in the first place and therefore doesn't actually KNOW -- it isn't about race, that's offensive.

No one said that you're a bad person, ignorant, racist, or an asshole, so stop acting like you're being attacked. This is a discussion, not an attack. You came into a discussion and said that the poster is wrong, that those who believe that race is informing people's choice to write or not write characters are wrong, but when other people try to give you context, you say that we're all ganging up on you. Do you see why that's a problem?

People of color in fandom can't actually talk about race issues in fandom because (a) white people come in and tell them they're wrong and (b) make the situation all about them, ignoring how racism within fandom affects people of color in fandom, and acting like they're being attacked even when they're not.

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I didn't say you were an ignorant Canadian. I said you were blind to race issues. It wasn't intended to be a personal attack. It took me years to see the way that race had a constant impact on my life.

I don't think your whiteness is what makes you blind to racism, I think the fact that you said race didn't play into your everyday life indicates that you are blind to it. I'm not saying you are a bad person, I'm saying you probably aren't paying attention.

I can see where the volume of response you got to what you probably saw as a fairly inconsequential comment can be overwhelming and where you might feel attacked. I highly doubt that was anyone's intention, it certainly wasn't mine.

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