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I actually really love Gym Class's music, and they seem like awesome dudes from what I occasionally see of them. But, for whatever reason, I think they're just one of the bands that don't get written about much-- however, I don't think there is necessarily any more fic about the non-William and yet still very white members of TAI either. Or fics about Ryland unless it's a GSF (which is sadly not frequently written). Or the Hushies at all, unless Greta is being used as a make-shift Mary Sue in a cross over with another band.

Personally, I just don't know enough about any them as people (or as characters) to write about them or even necessarily to read about them, and that's not an issue of race. I don't think it's fair to assume that people aren't writing smut about Disashi because he's black. It might be that they're afraid of just writing him incredibly OOC since nobody knows anything about the dude.

I'm just venturing guesses, though. *shrug*

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Personally, I just don't know enough about any them as people (or as characters) to write about them or even necessarily to read about them, and that's not an issue of race. I don't think it's fair to assume that people aren't writing smut about Disashi because he's black. It might be that they're afraid of just writing him incredibly OOC since nobody knows anything about the dude.

Stop it. Do not say the race issue is imaginary and simultaneously say you don't even go looking for fic about the bandom people of color so you have no idea if there's an actual problem.

You are ignorant about the issue. Someone is trying to tell you there is a problem. If you don't trust zee or if you don't trust anyone and you want to find out if she is right, go look it up. Go count stories on

dotcoms_refresh or del.icio.us and crunch some numbers.

But don't say, "I never noticed a problem, and despite the fact I was not looking in the right direction to notice a problem, if I didn't see a problem, obviously there was not one."

To the extent that bandom is part of mediafandom, it is reasonable to assume that mediafan patterns of behavior apply, and there's been an ongoing discussion in mediafandom for years where white fans have said, straight out in comments or live and to my face, they don't write characters because they are of color.

Race and racism is an issue in mediafandom generally, and there is no reason to expect that bandom is more enlightened than the rest of us.

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Wow, hi, way to put words in my mouth. You're right, I hadn't noticed the problem, but I didn't say that it didn't exist. I just wasn't looking for it, as issues of race don't play in to my daily life. Maybe it's an American thing. That doesn't make me completely ignorant or intentionally insensitive. I just have a different perspective on the situation.

I agree that the number of stories written about Travie or Gabe or Disashi (or fuck, I don't know, Matt Mixon or KTC or whoever else you want to include in this) is comparatively low. But hey, they're also in the minority in general. There are obviously going to be more stories about white guys in bandom because there are more of them. You don't have to be looking for it to notice that. But not going out of my way to read fic about bandom PoC doesn't make me (or anyone else or the fandom at large who doesn't go looking for fic about them) racist, however. You weren't accusing me of that, but it kinda felt that way all the same. :/

The point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of people in this bandom that aren't getting fic written about them, and that it's not necessarily always about race. I think it's fair to say that I just find I gravitate more to fic about FOB and yeah, The Cab, because they're my favourite bands in this whole crazy mixed up world. It's NOT because they're white and I'm white, but I can see where those conclusions could be jumped to, if you were thinking only in those terms. However, if GCH were my ~favourite~, I would just as easily be more interested in looking for their fic. And at the end of the day, I still have a folder of like 50+ 'treckett'/'gabilliam'/'soap supergroup' pictures saved because, yeah, they're all sexy dudes who like to grope each other on stage, and that's what we're all here for. And when the whole supergroup OT3 thing was big, I read plenty of that fic because there was plenty being written (which was all pre-

dotcoms_refresh or del.icio.us...) It was really in our face. And now, not so much. I expect if Panic and the Cab weren't busy being so awesome and exciting right now, there might be more focus on the possibility of Travie/Pete, except even Pete is busy trying to become a legitimately hetero dude by getting engaged and all. The canon of everything is working against us. What the world needs now is more sweet AUs, apparently. Not that it'll fix things, necessarily, but it might help?

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"Personally, I just don't know enough about any them as people (or as characters) to write about them or even necessarily to read about them, and that's not an issue of race. I don't think it's fair to assume that people aren't writing smut about Disashi because he's black."

But, see, you can of did say that it didn't exist.

The difference is that the most popular bands -- FOB, MCR, Panic -- all get written about extensively. The problem is that GCH is more popular than Panic, but they're not written about. Travis, who has PLENTY of slashy canon with several people and most recently, Pete -- Pete might be engaged, but most of MCR is married and they get slashed constantly and Pete still gets slashed, just usually with white guys -- and still Travis doesn't get written with any kind of frequency.

Also, in every single fandom I've ever been in -- seven over the last five and a half years -- even when people of color are the main characters, they're not written with even half the frequency of white characters. It isn't a coincidence, it's far too prevalent for that, and the argument that it isn't related to race is used in every. single. fandom. because people don't want to deal with the fact that there is racism in fandom, and that racism isn't limited to guys who like to walk around in their mama's sheets.

Edited Date: 2008-04-27 03:24 pm (UTC)

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GCH is more popular than Panic, but they're not written about.

I completely disagree with this. Maybe GCH are more popular ~outside~ of bandom (in the States, anyway), but since that's not where the slash is being written, it's irrelevant. Panic are definitely more popular with the internet and bandom at large, hence being written about way waaaaaaay more.

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Panic are definitely more popular with the internet and bandom at large, hence being written about way waaaaaaay more.

But that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? They're popular why? With (this particular branch of) bandom, why? Why more popular with writers in this section of fandom, when, apparently (I don't know as my bandoms are mostly classic rock), GCH has more mainstream popularity than Panic?

I've seen what

vylit is talking about plenty of times in all different fic-generating areas of fandom: some blatantly obvious/subtext-filled relationships in movies/tv/bands/etc that aren't written about, often when there's a much less obvious (but all-white) pairing in the same canon that is (Hi, "Angel" fandom. Why oh why was Gunn/Wesley not more popular?) Movies that were fabulously slashy yet one of the members of the pairing was black, asian, or hispanic, and...just nothing. One or two dedicated writers and lots of folks who may say, "Wow that was slashy!" but nada as far as developing the fandom following you'd think the source material deserves.

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(no subject) —

helluvalot.livejournal.com

The point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of people in this bandom that aren't getting fic written about them, and that it's not necessarily always about race. How is that a useful point to make? In what way does that not negate zee's point that there is a problem with race?

Maybe you thought you were saying something original and inciteful, but I have had discussions about race and fandom before, and there is always somebody jumping in to say, "I just like these white guys, better," or, "It's not about race, it's just that there aren't as many CoCs," or whatever they can think of to say, which basically amounts to the problem is not as bad as the OP presents it, just leave me alone to write about my favorite white guys.

In today's discussion, you were that person. Congratulations.

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Maybe the reason that people keep saying this is that, for some of us, it's the truth. I'm not sure how else to say that. Sorry.

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Maybe the reason that people keep saying this is that, for some of us, it's the truth. I'm not sure how else to say that. Sorry.

http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/213836.html

What I am trying to get across is that if, for you, that is the truth, if you honestly and truly don't believe that you, in particular, are not having a problem writing people because of their race/ethnicity, if in a past fannish life you wrote about HBP-compliant Blaise Zabini, or Sulu, or Jake Sisko, or whatever, if you for serious and for real have reason to think you are not part of the problem … protesting your innocence makes you part of the problem and makes you look like the bad guy, because the cumulative effect of all of those people saying, "But I just like these white guys better, it has nothing to do with race," is to say, "Fandom uses CoC for fanactivity less than white guys because white guys are sexier/more deeply written/more numerous/more gay/better."

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IAWTC. I was surprised to find it so soon in the comment thread, but not surprised to find it.

omg. i love that a race in bandom convo is starting to kick off. because yeah, i like to know where the people around me stand. and sometimes this fandom can be a little ambiguous. *we all think Travie is hot and his hair is just crazy fun; but you know lets not talk about his BLACKNESS.*

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This year I've been through the wars on this issue: SGA, HP, High School Musical ... have you heard of

deadbrowalking. It's fictional person focused, but you might like it anyway.

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(no subject) —

anglwitscbdwngs.livejournal.com

So a lot of people are saying the things I'd be saying to you about GCH and CoC in fandom so I won't bother but there is something in your comment that i think needs to be remarked on:

I just wasn't looking for it, as issues of race don't play in to my daily life. Maybe it's an American thing.

If you think issues of race don't play into your daily life you are simply not paying attention. Race and racism are everywhere even though white folks are often blind to those issues. It doesn't mean the issues aren't impacting you every day it just means you aren't aware of them because you have the privilege of not being aware of them. I'm making an assumption you are white here (because the vast majority of people I've encountered who say that race doesn't play into their lives are white), and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong btw.

Racism isn't just an American issue. Being Canadian doesn't give you a get out of racism free card. A ten second google search gave me access to a ton of information about racism in Canada (http://www.hopesite.ca/remember/history/racism_canada_1.html).

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Look, fine, to you I'm an ignorant white Canadian. I'm fully aware there is racism in my country, and I don't think that being white makes me totally blind to it.

Sure, I'm all Scandinavian blood on my mother's side and some bizarre mixture of Scottish/Irish/French Huguenots on my dad's so I'm not even a little bit anything else, I can't cling to some "one-sixteenth whatever". And it'll just sound assinine if I start talking about how my group of friends is so diverse, because what this whole discussion is supposed to come down to is what boys we like to slash and how having never written any smut about Travis or Gabe apparently makes me a bad person.

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Seriously? No one called you ignorant or racist. You're behaving like this is ABOUT YOU, and it really, really isn't. It's fandom-wide. It's all over. No one has said that you're ignorant or racist, and in fact, people have gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to make sure that your feelings weren't hurt in this discussion. No one called you a bad person, so I have to say that when a person of color or group of people say, "hey, fandom, this isn't on. has anyone noticed how we're treating people of color?" and you come and say they have it wrong, that they're making something about race when according to you -- the person that doesn't even read GCH fic in the first place and therefore doesn't actually KNOW -- it isn't about race, that's offensive.

No one said that you're a bad person, ignorant, racist, or an asshole, so stop acting like you're being attacked. This is a discussion, not an attack. You came into a discussion and said that the poster is wrong, that those who believe that race is informing people's choice to write or not write characters are wrong, but when other people try to give you context, you say that we're all ganging up on you. Do you see why that's a problem?

People of color in fandom can't actually talk about race issues in fandom because (a) white people come in and tell them they're wrong and (b) make the situation all about them, ignoring how racism within fandom affects people of color in fandom, and acting like they're being attacked even when they're not.

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I didn't say you were an ignorant Canadian. I said you were blind to race issues. It wasn't intended to be a personal attack. It took me years to see the way that race had a constant impact on my life.

I don't think your whiteness is what makes you blind to racism, I think the fact that you said race didn't play into your everyday life indicates that you are blind to it. I'm not saying you are a bad person, I'm saying you probably aren't paying attention.

I can see where the volume of response you got to what you probably saw as a fairly inconsequential comment can be overwhelming and where you might feel attacked. I highly doubt that was anyone's intention, it certainly wasn't mine.

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sry for replying with the wrong journal

however, I don't think there is necessarily any more fic about the non-William and yet still very white members of TAI either. Or fics about Ryland unless it's a GSF (which is sadly not frequently written). Or the Hushies at all, unless Greta is being used as a make-shift Mary Sue in a cross over with another band.

But the thing is, GCH is a much bigger band than Cobra, TAI and The Hush Sound. They got almost as popular as FOB in the last year; Cupid's Chokehold got massive amounts of radio play. There's plenty of media about them. I think it's pretty messed up that they're as big as they are, but within fandom, they're seen at the same level as Hush Sound (and actually, I would say that Cobra has recently started to get a *lot* more fic and squee than either GCH or the Hushies).

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I guess I'm along with the rest of fandom, where I don't see GCH as a bigger band than the rest of DecayDance only because I'm thinking in terms of my own experiences. I don't see them getting any bigger here in Canada, and I don't hear them on the radio in my city, so it doesn't really occur to me that they're getting so big elsewhere. I know they are, yeah, they won that MTV award and they did that song with Kelly Rowland and all that. But I don't think of them that way.

They also don't appear to have a much larger fandom following on eLJay (but I might be in the wrong communities to say so.) But there are other huge bands made of up white guys that don't have massive fic followings either. It's hard to predict.

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I'm kind of guessing that you don't have a long history in fandom, although I could be wrong, but I'm seeing from your comment that you're unfamiliar with the following pattern which I have seen in every single fandom where someone tries to discuss race:

Someone says "Hey, there's not a lot of fic with [Character of colour]. What's with that?"

And then a lot of people reply "It's not that he/she/they are of colour! It's just that they're not personally interesting to me for a variety of reasons! Why does it have to be about race?"

And I don't mean to say that this isn't true for everyone who says it, but after a while it doesn't really matter if it's true: in every fandom, ever, the large majority of fans are uninterested in characters of colour. If it's not about race, it's an alien conspiracy we should probably look into. If it is about race, we should look into it. Either way, it's significant.

I know my username misleads some people, so I want to make clear, I'm white, and I do understand that sometimes you want to write fic about one person, and not about another. But our personal preferences weren't formed in vacuum, they were at least partly influenced by our society. And our society has some icky race issues.

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Yeah, I've been in other fandoms before, but I suppose before I've generally avoided this kind of meta discussion. And from the hostile reaction I've gotten, I suppose there's a reason why I've kept my trap shut. I guess I just don't know how to discuss my personal preferences without coming off as an ignorant and apparently latently prejudiced white girl. Awesome. :/

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I do get that advice is not particularly welcome when it comes from random people on the internet that you've never met before, but I'm going to strongly advise you to view this as one of those situations where you can learn a lot if you can listen to what other people say without taking it personally.

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I had no intention of getting into an argument when I made my original comment, I was just expressing my own opinion. It's hard not to take something personally when I say how I personally feel about the issue and get attacked for it by multiple people.

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(no subject) —

brownbetty

Personally, I just don't know enough about any them as people (or as characters) to write about them or even necessarily to read about them, and that's not an issue of race. I don't think it's fair to assume that people aren't writing smut about Disashi because he's black.

I agree with you. I said in my own comment below that I personally don't read fic about them because I don't find them attractive, not because they aren't white. People are getting too easily offended over this.

And you're right, there are lots of bandom people who hardly get written about, and they are white. I don't want to offend anyone by saying this, and I mean nothing bad against

ficbyzee for making this post, because I find it interesting to ponder, but. But, I just feel like people always want to drag the race thing into something and make it an issue. I'm not saying it isn't an issue in an overwheming number of aspects in daily life. But many times, and I think this is one of them, if the issue of race is very small and not even intentionally mean, people latch onto it and make it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Less GCH fic doesn't mean people have a problem with some of the members being black. It could just be that they're not appealing to read or write about for a number of other possible reasons.

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People are getting too easily offended over this.

That is a lovely stance to take when you are not the person who's culture/group/identity is being disappeared. Thanks for letting us know.

But, I just feel like people always want to drag the race thing into something and make it an issue.

I cannot drag something with me as if its a part of who I am everyday of my life *all the time*.

Okay the activist/Afro-Am Major/Angry Black Woman in me could pick apart the rest of your statement (and what it represents in a larger conversation about race and fandom) but I feel like it would take it to a personal level which really isn't the point.

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I have been attacked and discriminated against in real life because of my race. I know what it's like to feel like your culture group is being unfairly viewed and treated.

I'm not gonna lie and say that there are people in bandom who won't write/read fic centered around characters of color because of the race issue. But for the most part, people just aren't into these guys. I am just not really excited about anything GCH related, so I don't read fic about them. I don't find them attractive, so I don't read fic about them. That's not a racist thing, and there are many people who share similar views with me.

I made the comment about 'dragging the race issue' into things because too many times, people I know who aren't white will want to over exaggerate racial issues and see something small and insignificant as proof of racial discrimination. Honestly, imo, people getting upset that there aren't enough GCH fic or fics in general centered around people of color is an example of this. It's not like I haven't been where you've been or where any other person of color has been regarding social treatments that aren't fair because of race. But I think people latch on the the "issue" and see it in absolutely everything when it isn't really there, or isn't nearly as big as people make it out to be.

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okay well ass u me about making assumptions about your race. i did not realize that you identified as poc (or were non-white, if you don't click with that term).

i still think that its not okay to tell people that they are too sensitive when they feel parts of their identities are being disappeared, ignored, or attacked.

i also think that people often consider that when people of color bring up "little" racial misunderstandings that they are not acknowledging the ways that our experiencing of these things are systemic and therefore continuous. no the first time someone asks me why my hair is that this texture it doesn't seem like that big a deal. given that the question is asked at least once a week...i will bite your head off if you bring it up.

i disagree with you that it is unreasonable to assume that part of the reason people don't read fic about CoC's is because of race issues in whatever country/continent/part of the world. because racism is a pervasive and often unconscious system that affects our ways of seeing the world that we are often not conscious of.

and i will vehemently disagree that race is simply an "issue" to latch onto and that really isn't there or isn't nearly as big. we are all racialized. therefore any interaction between people invokes race because it is part of makes us who we are. we might or might not identify with all the things that other people ascribe to that part of us. but we are all racialized.

but back to my original point of this post that i am sorry for assuming you were white based on your comments. that was not okay.

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(no subject) —

gypsycaravan.livejournal.com

February